Comments on: Should diary cows have less animal rights than other animals? http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/ thinking globally, acting locally Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:09:15 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Keval http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-57883 Keval Sun, 16 Oct 2011 22:19:32 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-57883 Dear Jessica, I appreciate your sentiments. I have never lived on a dairy farm, but i have visited an animal sanctuary a few times. It's a place where rescued cows and bulls are allowed to live freely till the time they pass away naturally. This was the first time I was able to spend time with them, and realise how intelligent and perceptive and powerful they really are. Despite having the strength to kick or gorge me to death, they allowed me to stroke them and talk to them, and they acknowledged my presence with their gentle eyes and soft nudges. Additionally, i saw how effectively they could communicate, interact and live with each other, in their own ways, without words. Are we really that different from them? They eat to stay alive, so do we. They sleep, and so do we. They defend what they love, so do we. They mate with their fellow companions, and so do we. They have children, and so do we. And if they are stabbed, they cry in pain, and bleed. If we are stabbed, we react in the same way. We are already aware that non-human animals such as cats and dogs have unique personalities and are able to feel a wide range of emotions including joy, sadness, emotional pain etc. There are quite a few mother-cows and their children living at the sanctuary, and even though the children have grown up, their bond with their mothers is undeniable. This sacred bond is a universal trait amongst all mammals, yet it is also well known that 1 in 10 human mothers are unable to connect with their newborn babies. It is heartbreaking to learn from you that some young cow mothers abandon their babies, or kick them if they try to suckle. And yet it is only a mother who can truly understand what it is like to lose her child. Even words cannot describe the pain. Knowing that they are not that different from us, how can we disregard the emotional stress experienced by a mother cow upon losing her child, just because she cannot speak in English? Even if she wanted to, she cannot fight the hands that steal her babies away. It was claimed in your message, "Separation may be stressful for some mothers, but most generally don't worry". Jessica, did they actually tell you that it doesn't bother them that their baby is stolen from them? How can they possibly defend their basic rights of survival when they are born into slavery and total submission? Are you aware of the frustrations that African slaves experienced when they had everything taken away from them? When life had no meaning at all, but to get exploited and used? You claim that the babies are treated very well on your farm, and I am sure they are. But that doesn't change the fact that they are going to be stabbed, disembowelled, and cut up into as many pieces as possible. Obviously, a healthy baby will sell better... just as a healthy human slave got a better price. You mentioned that `Cows are 'culled' if they have problems, have a dangerous temperament, or have a history of infections in their udders.' Would we ever kill another human if they had `problems' or a dangerous temperament or a history of infections? If we are responsible for bringing a sentient life into this world, we are responsible for the survival of that sentient being, not for ending his/her life when he/she becomes a `problem'. I can't argue with what you stated - `that if cows retain milk in their udders and are not milked this causes pain and suffering and leads to infections in the udder'. But they are only producing milk because WE forced them to do so, through their pregnancies and the subsequent birth of their babies. The milk is meant for her baby, just as our mothers breastfed us to ensure our health and survival when we could not ingest solid foods. But please explain to me how the mother cow is meant to suffer less when the blade enters her neck, just because she was walked her into the truck and transported her to the place of her imminent death? Please make me understand what is so noble about escorting an innocent mother or child to her painful death. What gives us the right to dominate and exploit another sentient being? Would we ever treat a human mother the way we treat a cow mother? Would we ever enslave a woman, artificially inseminate (rape) her, and steal her baby away when he/she is born? Would we ever tie her to a machine and drain out her milk, and sell it to others? And would we keep doing this to her, again and again, for more than 10 years? And finally when her mind and body starts to give up, would we proudly escort her to the slaughterhouse with all her other enslaved sisters, where she would be killed and her body parts sold? Can you possibly imagine anything worse that could happen to a sentient being who is capable of feeling emotional and physical pain? I am a dentist by profession, and I have researched enough to know that neither dairy nor eggs nor flesh is needed by humans to be happy and healthy. In fact, we are better off if we don't have them at all. I make sure I tell all my patients about this, because that is my duty to my patients... to advise them on what's best for them. No other species on Earth dominates and enslaves another species for milk or eggs, and no other species continues drinking milk into adulthood. By continuing to drink milk, are we refusing to grow up? As more and more people realise this, with the incredible power of the internet and social networking, the exploitation of non-human animals will gradually decrease significantly. Jessica, I appreciate the fact that your family loves its non-human residents on your farm, and how you spend hours taking care of them as they grow up. You are incredibly lucky that you get the opportunity to look after such affectionate and loving companions, who effortlessly bring so much joy to our lives. I therefore urge you to try and understand why it goes against our very nature to control and use them and their bodies, to fulfil our wants (not our needs). These poor mothers and their babies have suffered enough. Defenceless and unable to retaliate, they have experienced pain, most humans cannot even imagine. But you have the power to end their suffering, right now. Just in case you're not aware of what happens to your friends when they leave your farm, go to http://www.earthlings.com/ - click on `Feature film' and watch it when you get a moment. Because they would want you to. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Keval Dear Jessica,
I appreciate your sentiments. I have never lived on a dairy farm, but i have visited an animal sanctuary a few times. It’s a place where rescued cows and bulls are allowed to live freely till the time they pass away naturally. This was the first time I was able to spend time with them, and realise how intelligent and perceptive and powerful they really are. Despite having the strength to kick or gorge me to death, they allowed me to stroke them and talk to them, and they acknowledged my presence with their gentle eyes and soft nudges. Additionally, i saw how effectively they could communicate, interact and live with each other, in their own ways, without words.
Are we really that different from them? They eat to stay alive, so do we. They sleep, and so do we. They defend what they love, so do we. They mate with their fellow companions, and so do we. They have children, and so do we.
And if they are stabbed, they cry in pain, and bleed. If we are stabbed, we react in the same way.
We are already aware that non-human animals such as cats and dogs have unique personalities and are able to feel a wide range of emotions including joy, sadness, emotional pain etc. There are quite a few mother-cows and their children living at the sanctuary, and even though the children have grown up, their bond with their mothers is undeniable. This sacred bond is a universal trait amongst all mammals, yet it is also well known that 1 in 10 human mothers are unable to connect with their newborn babies. It is heartbreaking to learn from you that some young cow mothers abandon their babies, or kick them if they try to suckle.
And yet it is only a mother who can truly understand what it is like to lose her child. Even words cannot describe the pain. Knowing that they are not that different from us, how can we disregard the emotional stress experienced by a mother cow upon losing her child, just because she cannot speak in English? Even if she wanted to, she cannot fight the hands that steal her babies away.
It was claimed in your message, “Separation may be stressful for some mothers, but most generally don’t worry”. Jessica, did they actually tell you that it doesn’t bother them that their baby is stolen from them? How can they possibly defend their basic rights of survival when they are born into slavery and total submission? Are you aware of the frustrations that African slaves experienced when they had everything taken away from them? When life had no meaning at all, but to get exploited and used?
You claim that the babies are treated very well on your farm, and I am sure they are. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are going to be stabbed, disembowelled, and cut up into as many pieces as possible. Obviously, a healthy baby will sell better… just as a healthy human slave got a better price.
You mentioned that `Cows are ‘culled’ if they have problems, have a dangerous temperament, or have a history of infections in their udders.’ Would we ever kill another human if they had `problems’ or a dangerous temperament or a history of infections? If we are responsible for bringing a sentient life into this world, we are responsible for the survival of that sentient being, not for ending his/her life when he/she becomes a `problem’.
I can’t argue with what you stated – `that if cows retain milk in their udders and are not milked this causes pain and suffering and leads to infections in the udder’. But they are only producing milk because WE forced them to do so, through their pregnancies and the subsequent birth of their babies. The milk is meant for her baby, just as our mothers breastfed us to ensure our health and survival when we could not ingest solid foods.
But please explain to me how the mother cow is meant to suffer less when the blade enters her neck, just because she was walked her into the truck and transported her to the place of her imminent death? Please make me understand what is so noble about escorting an innocent mother or child to her painful death.
What gives us the right to dominate and exploit another sentient being? Would we ever treat a human mother the way we treat a cow mother? Would we ever enslave a woman, artificially inseminate (rape) her, and steal her baby away when he/she is born? Would we ever tie her to a machine and drain out her milk, and sell it to others? And would we keep doing this to her, again and again, for more than 10 years? And finally when her mind and body starts to give up, would we proudly escort her to the slaughterhouse with all her other enslaved sisters, where she would be killed and her body parts sold? Can you possibly imagine anything worse that could happen to a sentient being who is capable of feeling emotional and physical pain?
I am a dentist by profession, and I have researched enough to know that neither dairy nor eggs nor flesh is needed by humans to be happy and healthy. In fact, we are better off if we don’t have them at all. I make sure I tell all my patients about this, because that is my duty to my patients… to advise them on what’s best for them. No other species on Earth dominates and enslaves another species for milk or eggs, and no other species continues drinking milk into adulthood. By continuing to drink milk, are we refusing to grow up? As more and more people realise this, with the incredible power of the internet and social networking, the exploitation of non-human animals will gradually decrease significantly.
Jessica, I appreciate the fact that your family loves its non-human residents on your farm, and how you spend hours taking care of them as they grow up. You are incredibly lucky that you get the opportunity to look after such affectionate and loving companions, who effortlessly bring so much joy to our lives. I therefore urge you to try and understand why it goes against our very nature to control and use them and their bodies, to fulfil our wants (not our needs).
These poor mothers and their babies have suffered enough. Defenceless and unable to retaliate, they have experienced pain, most humans cannot even imagine. But you have the power to end their suffering, right now.
Just in case you’re not aware of what happens to your friends when they leave your farm, go to http://www.earthlings.com/ – click on `Feature film’ and watch it when you get a moment. Because they would want you to.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Keval

]]> By: Sanjay Jain http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-57442 Sanjay Jain Fri, 07 Oct 2011 16:57:52 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-57442 Jessica, Let me start by saying, no matter how diplomatic I try to be, I am likely to offend you, because I am challenging your views/lifestyle. But just because I challenge your views, I don't consider you to evil or intentionally cruel. I agree it's frustrating. It always is (for both sides) when a new set of ethics collide with the status quo. Cruelty and ethics in general, are very subjective. I grew up in a place and time when child labor was common. My own family had children working for them. At the time I thought there was nothing wrong with it, after all we provided them with jobs. And we were respected by the people (kids and their parents) we employed. It was not until I thought about it from a different perspective that I realized how wrong I was! Not so long ago monarchy and slavery were also common, in fact they were said to be the will of god. I doubt any one wants to bring those back. I say this not to compare the issues but to show how values change. One moment something is acceptable and another it is not. Keep in mind, not every dairy farmer (or farm worker) treat cows the same way. You may be better than most, and I expect there are some who are better than you. I believe most vegans became vegan due to modern, so called factory farming. It sounds like your operation is not one, but I assure you they exist and the facts are not being exaggerated. After discovering the horrors of factory farming, many people asked do we actually need to consume dairy? I for one decided it was not necessary, even if the cows were treated "humanely". One can be solemn about walking the cows to the trucks, but I suspect the cows do not enjoy the ride to the abattoir. I realize that dairy farmers are just trying to make a living. Humanity needs to figure out collectively how we can all "make a living" and continuously improve how we do things, rather than make them worse. This applies to all aspects to life, be it farming, energy production etc etc... the process of improvement need not be so adversarial in my opinion. ~sanjay Jessica,

Let me start by saying, no matter how diplomatic I try to be, I am likely to offend you, because I am challenging your views/lifestyle. But just because I challenge your views, I don’t consider you to evil or intentionally cruel.

I agree it’s frustrating. It always is (for both sides) when a new set of ethics collide with the status quo. Cruelty and ethics in general, are very subjective. I grew up in a place and time when child labor was common. My own family had children working for them. At the time I thought there was nothing wrong with it, after all we provided them with jobs. And we were respected by the people (kids and their parents) we employed. It was not until I thought about it from a different perspective that I realized how wrong I was!

Not so long ago monarchy and slavery were also common, in fact they were said to be the will of god. I doubt any one wants to bring those back. I say this not to compare the issues but to show how values change. One moment something is acceptable and another it is not.

Keep in mind, not every dairy farmer (or farm worker) treat cows the same way. You may be better than most, and I expect there are some who are better than you. I believe most vegans became vegan due to modern, so called factory farming. It sounds like your operation is not one, but I assure you they exist and the facts are not being exaggerated.

After discovering the horrors of factory farming, many people asked do we actually need to consume dairy? I for one decided it was not necessary, even if the cows were treated “humanely”. One can be solemn about walking the cows to the trucks, but I suspect the cows do not enjoy the ride to the abattoir.

I realize that dairy farmers are just trying to make a living. Humanity needs to figure out collectively how we can all “make a living” and continuously improve how we do things, rather than make them worse. This applies to all aspects to life, be it farming, energy production etc etc… the process of improvement need not be so adversarial in my opinion.

~sanjay

]]> By: Ashvin Shah http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-57408 Ashvin Shah Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:35:37 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-57408 The issue is what are the cattle fed with and are they treated humanely. If they live on grass only and live freely without suffering pain (physical and mental), I personally do not see any issue - but if the feed is made through killing of other animals, then I would question your arguments. Trying to get rid of cows that are sick is one thing I would question. All animals have a right to live. The saying is "Live simply, so others can simply live". The issue is what are the cattle fed with and are they treated humanely. If they live on grass only and live freely without suffering pain (physical and mental), I personally do not see any issue – but if the feed is made through killing of other animals, then I would question your arguments. Trying to get rid of cows that are sick is one thing I would question. All animals have a right to live. The saying is “Live simply, so others can simply live”.

]]> By: Jessica http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-57361 Jessica Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:18:40 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-57361 I find this whole 'milk debate' extremely frustrating. Having been born onto and lived on a dairy farm my entire life I know the in's and out's of a dairy farm. And it is NOT cruel. Many young mothers abandon their calves, many older cows will too, and it's then my job to make sure that calf receives its colostrum milk to give it a healthy start to life. Colostrum is not however needed by the calf to survive, they can survive without it, it just contains a lot of nutrients and aids in the building up of the calf's immune system, and these things will stay in the milk for only around 12 hours, which is why farmers will generally separate calves from mothers after 1-2days, this allows the calf to be strong enough to walk and obtain their milk, given the mother will actually allow them too, some mothers will kick their calves if they try to suckle. Separation may be stressful for some mothers, but most generally don't worry. And they do see their calves again. Often calves are kept right next to the dairy so feeding is easier. Most calves are raised on farms for up to 1 year maybe 2, this includes male calves. They get the same treatment as the heifer calves. And they then will be sold at sales and may go straight to slaughter or to another farm. There are calf sales, but the calves are treated very well. To sell a skinny, sickly looking calf would not be cost efficient, so what's the benefit to the farmer? Healthy calves sell better. As for the milkers, same goes, a healthy cow produces better quality and quantity of milk. Most heifers don't reach milking stage till they are about 3 years old, nearing full maturity. And they may be milked for up to 10+ years! The oldest cow in our dairy herd was born in 1996.. Cows are 'culled' if they have problems, have a dangerous temperament, or have a history of infections in their udders. The udder of a cow is where milk is produced, not the stomach.. but it is true that if cows retain milk in there udders and are not milked this causes pain and suffering and leads to infections in the udder which may eventually kill the animal. Dairy cattle are treated the best that the farmers can. And when it comes till to take them to the abattoirs it's a solemn act of walking them into the truck and transporting them there. Not every cow is auctioned off also. That is something I have not even heard of. In Australia the farmer, and carer of the animal, loads the cow onto their truck and transport them themselves. No middleman. The ignorance of some people drives me to the edge. I know for a fact that my family loves its animal, I personally spend hours with new born calves as I would with a new born puppy, I teach our bulls ( because not everyone uses AI) to walk on halters, spend hours grooming and showing cattle. The dairy industry isn't evil or cruel, it involves hard work by decent farmers looking to make a living. And anyone who doesn't believe me can come to Australia and visit a dairy farm over here and see for themselves! I find this whole ‘milk debate’ extremely frustrating.
Having been born onto and lived on a dairy farm my entire life I know the in’s and out’s of a dairy farm. And it is NOT cruel. Many young mothers abandon their calves, many older cows will too, and it’s then my job to make sure that calf receives its colostrum milk to give it a healthy start to life. Colostrum is not however needed by the calf to survive, they can survive without it, it just contains a lot of nutrients and aids in the building up of the calf’s immune system, and these things will stay in the milk for only around 12 hours, which is why farmers will generally separate calves from mothers after 1-2days, this allows the calf to be strong enough to walk and obtain their milk, given the mother will actually allow them too, some mothers will kick their calves if they try to suckle.
Separation may be stressful for some mothers, but most generally don’t worry. And they do see their calves again. Often calves are kept right next to the dairy so feeding is easier.
Most calves are raised on farms for up to 1 year maybe 2, this includes male calves. They get the same treatment as the heifer calves. And they then will be sold at sales and may go straight to slaughter or to another farm. There are calf sales, but the calves are treated very well. To sell a skinny, sickly looking calf would not be cost efficient, so what’s the benefit to the farmer? Healthy calves sell better.
As for the milkers, same goes, a healthy cow produces better quality and quantity of milk. Most heifers don’t reach milking stage till they are about 3 years old, nearing full maturity. And they may be milked for up to 10+ years! The oldest cow in our dairy herd was born in 1996.. Cows are ‘culled’ if they have problems, have a dangerous temperament, or have a history of infections in their udders.
The udder of a cow is where milk is produced, not the stomach.. but it is true that if cows retain milk in there udders and are not milked this causes pain and suffering and leads to infections in the udder which may eventually kill the animal. Dairy cattle are treated the best that the farmers can. And when it comes till to take them to the abattoirs it’s a solemn act of walking them into the truck and transporting them there. Not every cow is auctioned off also. That is something I have not even heard of. In Australia the farmer, and carer of the animal, loads the cow onto their truck and transport them themselves. No middleman.
The ignorance of some people drives me to the edge. I know for a fact that my family loves its animal, I personally spend hours with new born calves as I would with a new born puppy, I teach our bulls ( because not everyone uses AI) to walk on halters, spend hours grooming and showing cattle. The dairy industry isn’t evil or cruel, it involves hard work by decent farmers looking to make a living. And anyone who doesn’t believe me can come to Australia and visit a dairy farm over here and see for themselves!

]]> By: Heena Modi http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-32483 Heena Modi Sun, 24 Jan 2010 14:16:28 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-32483 Agreed :( Agreed :(

]]> By: Michael http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-32308 Michael Mon, 18 Jan 2010 01:08:46 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-32308 You have to wonder how people can really believe that we are suppose to be drinking the breast milk of another species of animal? You have to wonder how people can really believe that we are suppose to be drinking the breast milk of another species of animal?

]]> By: M http://www.heenamodi.com/2008/05/29/should-diary-cows-have-less-animal-rights-than-other-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-29630 M Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:19:34 +0000 http://www.heenamodi.com/?p=182#comment-29630 I have never been able to digest dairy products properly so I have always avoided them. After reading this post I'm glad I have not supported the dairy industry as much as I could have. I don't know why some people treat animals only as a resource for their personal satisfaction rather than sentient feeling beings. I have never been able to digest dairy products properly so I have always avoided them. After reading this post I’m glad I have not supported the dairy industry as much as I could have. I don’t know why some people treat animals only as a resource for their personal satisfaction rather than sentient feeling beings.

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